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Two NYPD Cops Fire 84 Rounds at Murder Suspect

April 26, 2012  | 

Steven Murray allegedly used this .22-caliber pistol to kill his 13-year-old half-sister. Photo: NYPD
Steven Murray allegedly used this .22-caliber pistol to kill his 13-year-old half-sister. Photo: NYPD

A man who allegedly killed his 13-year-old half-sister survived a fusillade of bullets from New York City police officers early Tuesday, after pointing his pistol at officers.

Officers responded to a 911 call at 2971 Eighth St. in Harlem at 3:27 a.m. Tuesday.

Steven Murray, 28, had allegedly shot his mother Christine Fryar, 44, and her daughter Annie, according to the NYPD. Paramedics arrived to find the daughter dead with a gunshot wound to the head. The mother, who was also shot in the head, was transported to Harlem Hospital, and is listed in critcal condition.

Police eventually confronted Murray, who was running through the surrounding neighborhood. The officers pursued Murray on foot and returned fire after he fired one shot.

NYPD Sgt. Alexander Mesa fired 39 shots, and Officer Joseph Robinson got off 45 rounds. Murray was hit 14 times, and refused to drop his weapon, reports the New York Daily News.

Murray has been charged with murder and attempted murder.

By Paul Clinton

Tags: NYPD, Officer Involved Shootings, Domestic Disputes


Comments (74)

Displaying 1 - 74 of 74

titan @ 4/26/2012 4:41 PM

I can see it now.... A community uprising against the police. "Why were they chasing him" " he wouldnt have ran if the cops werent chasing him" "he wa one day away from changing his life around"

M.Conner @ 4/26/2012 4:49 PM

Someone please inform us of officers weapon, caliber and ammo used in this shoot.

I want to make sure I don't have any of them.

dave @ 4/26/2012 5:01 PM

45 rounds has to be just about every round of ammo that one officer was carrying at the time. 39 for the other. Wow. Granted, the guy didn't die, so I guess you can't really say that that number of rounds was unjustified, but you have to woner what happened when 84 rounds are fired and there are only 14 hits.

scpdblue @ 4/26/2012 5:10 PM

M.Conner,The NYPD uses Glock 19,9mm handguns and they use 124gr.Speer Gold Dot Hollow points. This is about marksmanship rather than the gun,caliber and round that is carried. I carry a Glock 19 loaded with Winchester Ranger 127gr.+P+ hollow points. But I practice a lot. I shoot combat handgun matches,I've been to Thunder Ranch in Texas. As the old saying says.Practice makes perfect.

skelbox @ 4/26/2012 5:24 PM

scpdblue..... as in Suffolk county PD? When was the last time you pulled your gun out of YOUR holster? I was born and raised in Suffolk, its not Harlem, thats where I work now. You can shoot all the paper targets in practice that you want, the problem is that they don't shoot back. Lets not second guess another police officer, you never know how you'd react in that situation. If you shoot in combat match you of all people should know how fast one can fire 45 rounds when adrenalin is pumping and your scared. The main goal is sign out at the end of the day, RIGHT?

bosshog @ 4/26/2012 5:27 PM

Shooting paper targets at the firing range is a lot different than shooting at a moving target that is shooting back at you. If anyone thinks they can do the job better, go down to City Hall and raise your right hand, im sure they're looking for people.

Dan the Man @ 4/26/2012 5:32 PM

They apparently use Glocks and Sigs with modified trigger pulls of 12 pounds. This is both an officer safety and a public safety issue. It is very difficult to get an accurate and stressful shot off at a suspect (who could be moving) when trying to pull back the trigger that requires 12 pounds of trigger pull. Try lifting a 12 pound weight with your trigger finger. Be care, you might dislocate it !
The negative effects of the excessive trigger pressure on shooting accuracy, officer safety and the public are obvious to me. Every time an officer fires a round it has the potential to endanger the public if it does not hit the suspect. Reference -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department#Firearms and on Trigger Pull - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing

Guillermo @ 4/26/2012 5:33 PM

This is a classic case of "Spray & Pray;" no marksmanship involved, just point the handgun in the general direction of the perpetrator and start pulling the trigger. This could have happened at NYPD or my own agency. I was at the range one quarterly qualification day and we were shooting all the ammo we had in our weapons and on our belts from the 25 yard line at a full-size humanoid silhouette target. One of our periniel problem shooters fired all 37 rounds at the target and hit the target once and the paper it was printed on once. As for those two NYPD officers, I wonder where the other 70 rounds impacted - hopefully they had safe backstops for their fusillade!

Hank @ 4/26/2012 5:42 PM

Say what you want but 70 rounds went somewhere unknown.

RPG @ 4/26/2012 5:42 PM

The real story here is that no officers or civilians were hurt during the exchange of gunfire, not the number of rounds fired. There obviously isn't enough information in the story to judge. And why are you guys attacking each other with your comments? Geezzzz.

CompetitiveLEO @ 4/26/2012 6:14 PM

Competition is as close as you can get especially if you get serious and far better than most LEO training I have seen. Having shot and won in Bullseye, Quickdraw, PPC, IPSC, SWAT competitions and other disciplines I can say I feel alot better about hitting the target at any time under any condition, When tried and tested in real life I have done the job very successfully. Skip the trigger issue, it is your trigger - learn it otherwise you are using an excuse for your failure to train. In real life I and many others will testify they never felt the trigger pull or heard the shots. Perfect, frequent practice makes for good real life shooting. As was said 70 shots unaccounted for. This sure sounds like a running spray and pray shooting!

BW @ 4/26/2012 6:23 PM

Look at all these arm chair quarterbacks. Y'all should take a look in the mirror every once in a while, and remember that unless you've been in the situations they were in, you have no room to talk. Everything changes when you're getting shot at.

Bill @ 4/26/2012 6:29 PM

At the risk of sounding a bit sarcastic, 2 cops fired a total of 84 rounds out of 2 weapons........And the guy is only hit 14 times....And he LIVED?? It sounds like these 2 couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Leonard Mather @ 4/26/2012 7:03 PM

With 84 shots and 14 hits, we have a 17% hit rate. The LEO's should be sent to the range for training. Especially if all 14 ended up being non-fatal. This is ipso facto evidence recommending range training for accuracy.

Bob@Az. @ 4/26/2012 7:32 PM

Sure would like to read more on this as I have a feeling much was left out. Chasing a armed killer through Harlem is not my idea of fun. Glad both Officers went home that night.

AusFost1 @ 4/26/2012 7:41 PM

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect, and there's no way to practice what it feels like to look at another human being through your sights. Training under stress is the only method that comes close. I don't know if the NYPD do this. I won't criticise these two guys - there'll be more than enough people to do that!

DavidA @ 4/26/2012 7:51 PM

It's not spray and pray, it's not "nobody can use a 12 pound trigger" (12 pounds was normal with revolvers and is common with lots of DA autos), it's nothing more than the typical gunfight for police. Very low hit rates are the norm, not the exception. The only thing unusual here is the high number of shots fired, not how many hit or missed.

Wayne L Chonicki @ 4/26/2012 8:17 PM

Now aren't you glad you aren't on the forensics team that has to document where EVERY frickin round fired ...ended up? And then diagram all that for the States Attorney. Never-the-less OUR guys came out unharmed. How embarassing it would be to die from an unlucky 'golden BB' .22 shot from a RG! ~

Bob T.retired NYS LEO @ 4/26/2012 8:23 PM

Aside from my regular range practice, I used to hire a 40 yr retired cop to teach me to shoot better. I believe the average officer misses 20% of his mark all the time. My instructor hit almost 99% of his shots including trick shots on targets. When I went to work in FL. I saw so many outstanding shooters I was simply amazed at their accuracy. I am pleased no one was injured but I am not criticizing for so many shots fired in an urban environment, of which I dont know the situation incurred.

Notar @ 4/26/2012 8:43 PM

I wonder how many of you Monday Morning Quarter Backs have ever been in a real life running gun fight.....Oh that's right, none of you have. Why do most cops carry 46 rounds of ammo on them? Because it might take that many rounds to solve the problem. Sometimes it takes more, sometimes it takes less.

Jay @ 4/26/2012 9:36 PM

Of a bigger concern should be WHERE did the rounds that never struck this murderer wind up at, on IN?

David N @ 4/26/2012 10:33 PM

The NYPD have their Glocks adjusted for what is called (I believe) the NY trigger pull. It is somewhere in the vicinity of 12 lbs of trigger pull. Unfortunately the department I worked in and retired from special ordered that trigger as well. In our case, though, we had model 22's in .40 caliber. The vast majority of our people literally hated it. That hard a trigger pull does not make for a particularly easy weapon to aim and fire, particularly in a stressful situation. I sincerely feel sorry for the officers of the NYPD. They're undergunned and over "triggered".

Ed Anderson @ 4/26/2012 10:47 PM

Why is anybody still using 9MM. We had an officer involved incident several years ago and the 10MM round was much more effective in stopping the threat. I doubt anybody would still be walking with 14 hits from .40 cal rounds.

Stephen Hall @ 4/26/2012 10:50 PM

Job well done Sgt. Mesa & Officer Robinson. Thank you for bringing this murdering, dangerous individual into custody so he can hurt no one else. And for those readers who have never been involved in a running gun battle with an unbalanced homicidal individual, take pause before you pass judgement on these fine Officers.

Dustin @ 4/26/2012 10:57 PM

Up here in Canada we have to qualify with 14 rounds at 25 METERS! Annually. Much more than yards. That's a norm. With 9mm and 40 cal. Guess we have marksmanship under wraps. (granted its just paper quay)

PortCop @ 4/26/2012 11:05 PM

These 2 officers fired at a guy 70 feet away who just shot at them and was still pointing his weapon at them and they scored 14 hits. That's not bad at all. Their weapons were an S&W 5906 (I believe) and a Glock 19 with absurd trigger pulls. God bless them both!

Art Brown @ 4/26/2012 11:13 PM

Been involved in 4 shootings. 2 with only 2 rounds fired with a .38 3 out 0f 4 hit's. 1 with a .45. 7 shots with 4 hit' 2 daytime 1 at night. I thank the Marine Corps and departmental training. I will not carry a 9mm. Now carry a Springfield XD .40 YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY PRACTICE.

Donald @ 4/27/2012 4:55 AM

14 hits and the dude is still alive!?!?!?

The old RG10 revolver. .22 caliber, made of pot metal. The epitome of "saturday night special." These things were $29 brand new back in the 80s

Scott @ 4/27/2012 5:15 AM

Yes, that is alot of rounds with only 14 hits. I do ask, were these guys the officers that were chasing him on foot? If so, how far? How fast? How long? Is it possible they didnt have the luxury of being relaxed?

Ric Walters @ 4/27/2012 5:18 AM

skelbox - if your only goal is to sign out at the end of the day, you've lost sight of why you're a cop. You're correct in saying that returning fire is very different than shooting paper - but every cop I ever knew that took part in combat matches is and was a better shot than those who don't. There's plenty of stress involved, and, as my former Chief once said - stress is stress. Your body reacts the same way, and if you don't train under stress, you'll react in the same manner, i.e. train like we play. It's easy to understand missing a running target, but firing 84 rounds with only 14 hits is inexcusable. Pumped on adrenalin or not, what would they have done if they'd suddenly had to return fire after using up every round in their weapons and extra mags? For goodness' sake - they weren't in a firefight in Kabul! They lost count, and, to some degree, lost control of the situation. To use Jeff Cooper's color system, they went from yellow to black to blacked out. That's just not a good thing.

Make no mistake, I'm grateful that both officers survived unscathed, and that they did get to sign out at the end of their shift, and that an obvious turd is now residing wherever NYC sends their murderers.

tom shelar @ 4/27/2012 5:28 AM

Was in three gunfights in first 4 years as a Trooper. We carried 6 shells in a Colt .38 spl. I fired 6 shots in 1 st., 5 in the second one, and 6 in the last. First perp gave up after emtied his revolver at me, second died after he fired 2 shots at me. Third died after he fired one shot. All my shots were aimed with one hand hold. No semi auto in play. We were trained to AIM and fire. Years, 1965-1968. Different weapons, training, response. We carried 16 slugs, including rounds in the Colt.

Pete @ 4/27/2012 5:38 AM

Shooting at paper is different than shooting at a moving target. Try running at full speed with your gear at 100 yds then shoot your target from 20 yards.

mmercier @ 4/27/2012 5:53 AM

How the hell does one survive 84 rounds fired in ones general direction....?

My uncle used to train police officers for firearms qualification. He told me the safest place to be when a leo discharges his / her weapon... is where they aim.

Scary.

Mildred @ 4/27/2012 5:53 AM

There is no Eighth street in Harlem. There is an Eighth street in lower Manhattan but not in Harlem.

32 Years on the Job @ 4/27/2012 6:01 AM

The big point that all of you are missing is that any handgun round is an iffy tool to use to stop a determined human who is loaded with adrenalin and endorphines at the time they are shot. It is a good reminder that real people in real shootings will often not react like hollywood actors when struck, and cops and lawful civilian users of force have to anticipate that eventuality.

Bob @ 4/27/2012 6:12 AM

84 rounds 95% of which missed, now do you see why I don't fear the coppers?

Rick @ 4/27/2012 6:16 AM

Cheetos and Grape pop make you invincible!

smittythewrench @ 4/27/2012 6:31 AM

This is not an isolated incident. It is the norm. Imagine what a prosecuter would do to a CCW civillian who emptied 3 high capacity magazines. If I were police chief these bozos would be serving burgers and fries. Incompetence and weapons are a bad mix. This is gross incompetence.

Jim @ 4/27/2012 7:18 AM

Stop making excuses for the marksmanship of these Officers and they Cal. and round that they use. Also if these weapons really do have a 12 lb pull that is disgraceful. Yes I know there is stress when shooting at a live target especially when it is shooting back but still! They need to practice to prevent these things from occurring. One of the reasons the bad guys run and shoot at the police is because they do not believe that they will be able to hit them. My Department had very few shooting and I am convinced that it is because whenever we did have to fire our weapons the Officer only fired one or two rounds d the suspect died. It was not because we had little crime either as we were extremely active and there were many occasions where firearms were involved but the bad guys tossed them down when we showed up or ordered them to do so. The reason is that they knew that we were all good shots and that they would receive fatal wounds if they did not comply. That is a win-win situation as less Officers died and less bad guys died.

swampsniper @ 4/27/2012 7:19 AM

What's a little bit of collateral damage among friends?

M.Conner @ 4/27/2012 7:23 AM

A knee jerk reaction to the rounds fired and multiple hits without death to the criminal. I also am very thankful no innocent people or officers were injured.

Chinhokelly @ 4/27/2012 7:25 AM

I agree that target practice is critical, but in the actual shooting situation, the cops had to worry about cover, downrange safety, richochets, etc. That's proably why when it was safe, they fired multiple rounds. And the suspect continued to resist. Every copper who throws down a critical opinion on this siutuation without knowing the facts...hope the suspect's defense attorney and civil litigation team don't subpoena this magazine forum server, obtain your info and then subpoena you to help him collect his multi-million dollar judgment against NYC. Then he truly WILL turn his life around as one poster predicted.

Security Mom @ 4/27/2012 7:46 AM

Did the Officers go home alive? Yes! Was the shooter activitly shooting at officers and refused to drop weapon? Yes! Had shooter wounded/killed victims? Yes! 14 hits and did not stop? What was he on? As wife and mother of LE I am satisified and congratulate NYPD. Stay safe, ever safe. Dedicated to Lakewood Pd Off. Chris Matlosz.

Lou @ 4/27/2012 8:26 AM

I'm not a Monday morning quarterback, and have no right to assess nor critisize those officers involved. I am however very happy that they went home safe to their families at the end of the tour.

James @ 4/27/2012 8:33 AM

scpdblue is correct in that this is about marksmanship. I doesn't appear from this article that either if these guys could hit a barn if they were right next to it. If you are going to carry a tool in your chosen profession you need to be proficient with it, period. Now about his being hit 14 times, were they body shots or extremity shots? It would make a difference, combined with their poor marksmanship skills.

Capt David LACO Retired @ 4/27/2012 8:35 AM

Should have been a 100 rounds!

D. Sanchez @ 4/27/2012 8:38 AM

I'll tell you why this is such a big issue. As well all know, you as a LEO or anyone as a civilian is COMPLETELY and TOTALLY responsible and accountable for each round that goes down range. Granted, the whole story is not printed, but one would assume this took place in at the very least, some sort of residential area. 70 rounds went somewhere, at 1100 feet per second, various angles, etc...I believe in shoot til the threat is no longer a threat, how much of a threat does 84 rounds say this guy was. It doesn't say how many rounds he fired at officers. One has to wonder, it is all of our responsibilities to question. As a civilian shooter, there would be NO question, I would be in jail pending investigation. As a LEO, it is absolutely QUESTIONABLE, why so many rounds, why so many misses...As a LEO or Civilian I seriously worry about a 16.6% hit ratio, because that means there was a 83.4% MISS ratio. And I don't care where, how or when, that is un-acceptable. So is it a question of training, lack of ability/skill, lack of judgement, failure in equipment. We all know that NYPD has one of the absolute best Tactical units in the world, but is there any trickle down to the everyday Cop on the street. 84 rounds and the bad guy is still alive...Something went seriously wrong...

Savoy06 @ 4/27/2012 10:06 AM

Maybe someone else brought this up already,
but where did the remaining 70 rds. go?

Uncle Al @ 4/27/2012 10:09 AM

That is too many rounds fired from a professional period!!! If thats our expectation of professionalism then as a society we are in serious trouble! If they took an innocent life in that transaction would you'll feel that was ok!?!

Milton Schick @ 4/27/2012 10:47 AM

Poor firearms training. Way too heavy a trigger pull on sidearm specifications approved by Liberal feel-good thinking. The New York Trigger is too dangerous to the general public. Trigger pull should be in the 5-6 pound range.

Steve @ 4/27/2012 11:33 AM

Please don't judge the officers by number of rounds we were not there was he behind cover we don't know and you shoot untill the threat stops

Jon @ 4/27/2012 11:59 AM

While shooting at paper targets is much different than a live suspect firing back, I have a problem with 70 rounds flying off into the unknown. If I, currently a civvie, use my legally owned and carried sidearm to defend myself and I miss that many times, I guarantee no one is going to stand up and say, "Well, its a stressful situation and that's to be expected". While I'm glad no officers were hurt, this only speaks to how under trained a large percentage of officers are. Required training by the PD is not enough, heck I go every week and I still have areas to improve on. I guess at the end of the day no one of worth got hurt so alls well that ends well.

gus @ 4/27/2012 12:32 PM

You can practice all you want but you dont know how you are going to do until your shooting at a target that moves and shoots back.

R. G. Montgomery @ 4/27/2012 3:15 PM

Eighty-four shots fired, seventy misses and it took an unspecified amount of time for the suspect to surrender or be rendered inert.

Sorry; no amount of excuses or 'give them a break' whining will make this right. This degree of incompetence harkens back to the Amadou Diallo incident: Without regard to 'justified or not', those officers fired forty-one rounds and made nineteen hits. (Actually, that was statistically superior in performance.)

"...real story here is that no officers or civilians were hurt during the exchange of gunfire..." I don't recall "Blind Dumb Luck" during either of my academies. It was mentioned, but only in derision.

If the NYPD has a handgun training and qualifying program, it needs serious work.

Saith @ 4/27/2012 4:11 PM

They managed to HIT him 14 times and he survived? That's pretty darn impressive. Lucky thing none of those rogue shots went through a window or struck someone walking down the street, seems a bit like overkill. Perhaps a more judicious use of bullets next time would be appropriate.

Adrian Stroud @ 4/27/2012 6:58 PM

Nice job NYPD! You acted decisively and defended yourselves admirably. You hit the guy 14 times! That's the point. Even if an officer sprays and prays, who cares? He is desperately trying to stay alive, I don't blame him!! Do you know how many Officer's funerals I've been to where they never got a shot off? Great job NYPD.

Random @ 4/28/2012 1:25 AM

14 out of 80

This is where the guy training next you at the range starts bringing a helmet and a shield.

I hope there was a cartoonish outline around the suspect.

SP6468 @ 4/28/2012 9:34 AM

There is no question that most officers don't train enough at the range. However, the "NYPD trigger" ruined what Glock produced. Read what Pat Sweeney and other gun experts have to say about the NYPD issued Glock

Driver @ 4/28/2012 2:22 PM

70 missed rounds is an issue... You can understand round count being high especially in a stressful situation. 14 hits on a target, and the threat not stopping is also an issue. Hit ratios of 2 to 1 (28 misses) or even 3 to 1 (42 misses) are somewhat understandable given stress, and incidents. NYPD has has a recent history of excessive lead flying that really should be addressed. Better training for the officer where they are forced to maintain target hits under stress. Firearms with lighter triggers (8 to 10 pound pulls are still heavy but useable even considering "liability concerns)... Another question are the sights on NYPD pistols, are they night sights or old skool white dots? Was the shooting in low light conditions? Our pistols are the tools of the LEO trade, use the right tool for the job, train for the worst and hpe ofr the best. lets not critize the issue, lets correct it.

peace

ZimZam @ 4/28/2012 7:47 PM

First, sounds like a running gun battle. Second, you forgot to mention the "NEW YORK TRIGGER." A 12 pound trigger on a good weapon really makes it difficult to fire in conditions other than standing still at the target range. Because of a few negligent discharges, the City decided to make all glocks 12lbs instead of the normal 5. Some gunfire discipline would have reduced the number of rounds, but then again, I was not there.

rog1811 @ 4/29/2012 8:01 AM

I agree with most comments posted and do not discount the value of the others. However, unless NYPD has changed it training system, officers are taught to engage the suspect in a firefight until the suspect is down, be 1 round or all they have with them, yes?

Cam @ 4/29/2012 4:41 PM

Judge not.......and be glad it was not one of the naysayers in that gunfight. We need better weapons, semi-auto .223, as it seems the bad guys sure have plenty to use and have fun at innocent folk, and LEO's. Annie Oakley in Montana

Cam @ 4/29/2012 4:45 PM

The public need to know that tazers, bean bag rounds, and fire arms are sometimes virtually useless against when the suspect is on any drug, alcohol, and as well as prescription meds. Educate AND educate!

Sam9 @ 4/30/2012 7:51 AM

OK, lots of shots at a moving target that was shooting back. Without knowing the distances involved, the cover the suspect was using when the officers were shooting and how far the foot pursuit went on as the shots were being fired, it is unfair to judge the officers actions and hit ratio on the suspect. If you have any training at all in police shootings, you will know that reaction time from when you have the suspect in your sights and you pull the trigger will cause a miss when the target is moving. Force Science has proven that over and over.

I'm glad no innocents were hit, the suspect was caught and the officers were not physically injured in the event. If you don't understand the dynamics of a fluid situation and stress on the officers, please don't condemn them.

CommanderG @ 4/30/2012 7:58 AM

Just in interesting note for those of us who had wheel guns back in the day. When agencies had 6 shot revolvers, studies showed that the average hits on target was about 15% or approximately 1 in 6 rounnds as far as accuracy.

Now with heavier firepower, the average here was appoximately 16%.

Interesting note, heavier firepower did not increase accuracy.

Mike Hargreaves @ 5/1/2012 3:40 AM

The Glock19, superb pistol. 12lb trigger? For Officer safety? How stupid. I carry a G19 every day. If I do not want to shoot it, I do not put my finger on the trigger.

What fool mandated a 12lb trigger? I bet he/she was not an on Duty
NYPD Officer. Some dumb suit.

Bob@Az. @ 5/1/2012 8:13 PM

Driver: Amen brother.

Juan 10-13 @ 5/2/2012 8:57 AM

Hey guys don't forget that the ....hole is connected the trigger finger and when it squeezes shut.........! Marinate on that before you judge!

cpl224 @ 5/2/2012 9:09 AM

Lets not be like the liberal biased press and jump to conclusions. There are many factors that must be considered. Training, equipment and policy are just some of them. One of the most influential factors not explored is the officer's perception. Lets get all the facts first. God bless and be Safe brothers.

John @ 5/8/2012 6:17 PM

The NYPD issues or allows the carriage of several handguns, for uniformed duty use. Primarily the Glock 19, but also the DAO version of the Sig Sauer P226 and the Smith & Wesson 5946. The issue ammunition is the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P. For revolver carry it is primarily the Smith & Wesson Model 64, altered to fire double action only and ammunition is the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P.

All of the listed firearms have sterling reputations for reliability and the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P is one of the few controlled expansion jacketed hollow points, that performs as advertised most of the time. Some projectiles don't work at times, and no one really knows why. The Speer Gold Dot is one of the really stellar performers against goblins. I can't help but add my two cents.

How about;... these hero's all went home to see another day and a rampant goblin was stopped. As a firearms instructor for my agency, I "gulp" at the total round expendature.......but I wasn't there! As someone who is been shot at and doesn't care for it much I might add, I get it! And again, I wasn't there!

Msot respectfully

j

hank hill @ 12/30/2012 11:06 AM

these cops have no judgement whatso ever! one dopy perp with a 22cal 6shot could have been held at bay till someone showed up with a bean bag. i would give cops two shots each just to let the perp know they were still there!

Steve @ 12/31/2012 2:56 PM

I question only one thing - what was Murray on, 14 rounds even with 9mm and he still able to walk, talk and breathe. I don't criticise the number of rounds fired, it 's not easy to hit your mark when you are running pumped with adrenalin and the target is also on the move. Try it then comment in the negative. Also all the range practice, trigger control, etc does not compensate for an active hostile situation, it only gives you more confidence to address a situation before you are involved.

mr duh @ 1/16/2013 11:38 AM

I think the point is that the new ban on large clips or assault rifles or background checks would have done nothing to deter or stop the murder and attempted murder here!

Joseph P. Robinson @ 2/28/2013 3:43 PM

Thank you all!!!. I just found this posting almost 1 yr later. Those who bash.............thanks. Those who support THANK YOU SINCERELY. It will all come out in trial. I have been involved in 2 shootings and no better not to engage in any comments. Those who bash, i have one thing to reply. DONT JUDGE YOU DONT KNOW!!!

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